Re: ULTRATITLE Rd. 3 Br. 3+4 Unofficial Post-RP Predictions Thread!

I have fedheadded in the past and I know how much work goes into running one. So, anyone who wants to run a fed should have the right to run it any way they want, up to and including forbidding female characters wrestling men.

I also remember a couple years ago when some guy named Durian David Orthane decided to start a new fed, got a female applicant, declared he wasn't accepting female wrestlers, and lost just about everyone who had been planning to join.

I've also noticed that the longer you argue with the he-man-woman-hater types, the more obvious it gets that the only real problem they have with intergender wrestling is because the thought of losing to a girl makes their weiners small.

You point out to them that other efeds push women. "Oh those efeds all sucked, they don't count"

Then you remind them of the time their feds had women at the main event level. "Oh well that was a long time ago so it doesn't count."

You point out that Chyna got pushed. "Oh well she was a behildabeast so it didn't count"

Then you point out that plenty of women on the indy scene beat men. "Oh well that's just the indy scene it didn't count"

Then you point out that women in Japan beat men. "Oh well that's just Japan, Japan's weird and the culture is different so it doesn't count." I suppose they'd say the same thing about Mexico if someone were to bring up that AAA features intergender matches regularly.

And then someone brings up MMA, which has absolutely fuck all to do with real pro wrestling, let alone efedding.

tl;dr not liking intergender wrestling is way stoopider than intergender wrestling

Re: ULTRATITLE Rd. 3 Br. 3+4 Unofficial Post-RP Predictions Thread!

NO JEFF UR RONG BECAUSE FUK U!

You wait until Terence gets here.

Re: ULTRATITLE Rd. 3 Br. 3+4 Unofficial Post-RP Predictions Thread!

All I know is I'm gonna RP a 8'0", 600 lb. monster character for the next ULTRATITLE and when he doesn't beat everyone because he's way bigger than everyone, I'm gonna pitch a ***** the likes no one has ever seen because the biggest guy always wins, right?

Re: ULTRATITLE Rd. 3 Br. 3+4 Unofficial Post-RP Predictions Thread!

Justin said:

NO JEFF UR RONG BECAUSE FUK U!

You wait until Terence gets here.

Click to expand...

i don't believe we're discussing dragons here sir.

Re: ULTRATITLE Rd. 3 Br. 3+4 Unofficial Post-RP Predictions Thread!

You done brought your pants to a nekkid fight.

Re: ULTRATITLE Rd. 3 Br. 3+4 Unofficial Post-RP Predictions Thread!

Well, seeing as how the thread has gotten way off topic, where shall I start?

* TH is correct about more of the Japanese influence coming over into American wrestling, but as far as what still makes for a difference between the two, it has nothing to do with what fans in either country find "realistic." In the United States, a lot of what's done to build up interest for a match is doing interviews with an interview who works for the fed and angles that range from injuries to stealing items of worth to insults that must be answered -- the list goes on. Japan, on the other hand, is about wrestlers giving interviews in front of the press (the actual press, not a bunch of guys who just fill the role of interviewer) which in turn builds up interest in matches.

In other words, the differences have more to do with presentation and approach, not what people in the countries think of as "realism."

* The real reason Chyna's run with the men didn't last long was because Chyna was a lousy worker. It didn't matter whether she wrestled women or men -- she didn't know how to do a lot of the basics that go into putting together a match that draws people in, such as pacing, transitions, when to roll out the high spots and when it's time to mount a comeback. If you don't know how to do those things, you won't last for long. Chyna got by on her charisma, but over time, that waned and, between her lousy workrate and terrible interviews, she was destined to fade away.

Really, the reason why you haven't seen a woman pushed as the top wrestler in a promotion, alongside men, is because there hasn't been a woman who has come along who combines strong charisma, workrate in which she understands the basics of how to draw people into a match and keep them interested, and the ability to give strong interviews. That's how you become a top pro wrestler -- just look at Hogan, Flair, Austin, Rock and Cena, who all differ in terms of what they bring to the table, but who all had strong charisma, understood the basics of workrate and how to use them well, and could give good interviews.

In American wrestling, Sable had tons of charisma but couldn't interview well and never was interested in working a match. Trish Stratus could work a match well but was merely solid as an interview and, while charismatic, didn't have it at the level of Austin or Rock.

And while I have no idea if a woman will ever reach that pinnacle, it wouldn't surprise me to see a 175-pound man come along who has all the elements that the likes of Austin and Rock had -- and in that case, you better believe he's getting pushed to the top if the promoter who finds him has good business sense -- meaning, yes, 400-pound guys will job to him because that's what they do for your top guy.

* As far as e-w goes, there are feds in which women have separate divisions and feds in which there is some intergender wrestling. Hey, whatever it is the fedhead wants to do or finds acceptable, it's up to the fedhead and people who disagree are free to find another fed. My only concern is that the matches are written so there's at least some realism in terms of how characters are portrayed. What I mean is this: If you have a women who wrestles submission style, facing a man whose strength is in brawlling, then the man better come out on top in a slugfest and the woman better not start doing aerial moves she's never done before. This has nothing to do with "men better beat women" and everything to do with "they need to stick to their styles and the match needs to reflect their styles."

It's for that reason that I probably wouldn't put my female e-w characters into too many matches with men because their wrestling style, as I see them, wouldn't always be easy to work into a match against a man. That's just how I see things.

And yes, I am aware that e-w stretches the bounds of believability many times but you still better set some limits. If I see two wrestlers having a match on the moon and neither one is dressed in astronaut gear and we are ignoring the effects of gravity on the moon, I am certainly going to track down whoever writes that match or runs that fed and smack 'em upside the head for being just plain f'n stupid.

OK, off my soapbox I go.

Re: ULTRATITLE Rd. 3 Br. 3+4 Unofficial Post-RP Predictions Thread!

Yes, well, speaking personally, I do all that stuff if I make a female character and I expect it from any handler I get who wants to play one. If Defiance gets a female wrestler applicant, the first thing I do is tell the handler she needs to be bigger and the second thing is go over the moveset and tell the handler to include things like takedowns and escapes and ways to wrestle larger opponents that isn't "She just suplexes them because she's like so totally superstrong for her size" or a moveset full of things like triple rotation shooting star hurracanDDTdriverbuster*.

Bad matchwriting is and always will be, but it's not necessarily the fault of the female characters. And if I end up writing a match for a female character whose moveset I haven't had the opportunity to go over, I just ignore it and pretend I'm writing for one of the female v-fed characters I created between Defiance 1.0 and Defiance 2.0.

And in my defense for doing all that I've had a couple people say "I still don't like intergender wrestling but Jeff writes it well enough that I don't mind it too much"

* Note to self: Make wrestler whose finisher is called the hurracanddtdriverbuster.

Re: ULTRATITLE Rd. 3 Br. 3+4 Unofficial Post-RP Predictions Thread!

Justin said:

Like so many have already said:

Who. Gives. A. ****?

We're pretend to be fake wrestlers, I once ran a fed with a werewolf as the champion.

HEY BILLY!

Do you know what the "F" in FWRESTLING.COM stands for?

Click to expand...

There's also a "W" in there. This is what people don't get - it's not a free-wheeling fantasy realm we deal with here, but a somewhat restricted one because it's based on wrestling. If it was called "Fantasy Fantasy" I'd kind of agree with you, but it's not. Regardless, just because something is "fantasy" doesn't relieve you from having to make sense. Look at the guy who wrote Game of Thrones - he actually hired somebody to create languages for his book so that he wouldn't have to write nonsensical jibberish. Sh*t still has to make sense to a certain degree, fantasy or not. Sorry to say, if you ran a league with a legit werewolf as champion, that league BLOWS.

Steve - Didn't really have a "source" per se, I just heard it talked about on the forums. Like I said, didn't know too much other than she was supposedly going to get a big push in CSWA. Obviously you guys know a lot better than I do lol. I have a lot of respect for Lindsay and I was really just trying to demonstrate how successful she's been.

Holz - Where did I say the biggest person always wins? Actually, by your reasoning, a 10 year old girl should be able to compete as well as anybody else. 8'0 600 lbs? Well, you know, if I were the fedhead, I would probably reject somebody like that in all honesty. Yes, it does get to the point where if you're RPing somebody who is like 10 feet tall, obviously nobody is going to beat them with any believability. This was never about "I hate women, no way no how can they participate in FW", I just think believability matters in wrestling, and therefore fantasy wrestling. But as I said a million times prior, I don't REALLY care that people have chicks going over guys in FW, because I've accepted the precedent. I was more arguing about real-life wrestling.

Re: ULTRATITLE Rd. 3 Br. 3+4 Unofficial Post-RP Predictions Thread!

JeffOLW said:

Yes, well, speaking personally, I do all that stuff if I make a female character and I expect it from any handler I get who wants to play one. If Defiance gets a female wrestler applicant, the first thing I do is tell the handler she needs to be bigger and the second thing is go over the moveset and tell the handler to include things like takedowns and escapes and ways to wrestle larger opponents that isn't "She just suplexes them because she's like so totally superstrong for her size" or a moveset full of things like triple rotation shooting star hurracanDDTdriverbuster*.

Bad matchwriting is and always will be, but it's not necessarily the fault of the female characters. And if I end up writing a match for a female character whose moveset I haven't had the opportunity to go over, I just ignore it and pretend I'm writing for one of the female v-fed characters I created between Defiance 1.0 and Defiance 2.0.

And in my defense for doing all that I've had a couple people say "I still don't like intergender wrestling but Jeff writes it well enough that I don't mind it too much"

* Note to self: Make wrestler whose finisher is called the hurracanddtdriverbuster.

Click to expand...

I can at least respect that you try and make it sensical. I've seen leagues where 120 broads are choke-f*ck-drivering men into the ground and then 450 splash DDT-choking the piss out of them. So I did what any responsible handler would do, and ran an angle in A1E where Castor roofied Duchess and put her into a porno.

Wait, is "broads" PC, or does it still have that Humphrey Bogart charm to it?

Re: ULTRATITLE Rd. 3 Br. 3+4 Unofficial Post-RP Predictions Thread!

LQJT86C said:

Wait, is "broads" PC, or does it still have that Humphrey Bogart charm to it?

Click to expand...

Fixed it for you.

LQJT86C said:

I can at least respect that you try and make it sensical, see. I've seen leagues where there's these 120 broads, see, are choke-f*ck-drivering men into the ground and then 450 splash DDT-choking the piss out of them. So I did what any responsible handler would do, I told 'em to scram and g'wan, get outta here, and ran an angle in A1E where Castor roofied Duchess and put her into a porno.

Click to expand...

Re: ULTRATITLE Rd. 3 Br. 3+4 Unofficial Post-RP Predictions Thread!

Who knows if he was legit? This was like 1996 and I was 15 and the fed did suck. The point of the matter is that you over generalize everything to death and at least half the the people still posting in this thread are trolling you just for the lulz. Like I said, it doesn't matter to anyone except for someone it matters too.

Re: ULTRATITLE Rd. 3 Br. 3+4 Unofficial Post-RP Predictions Thread!

Justin said:

Who knows if he was legit? This was like 1996 and I was 15 and the fed did suck. The point of the matter is that you over generalize everything to death and at least half the the people still posting in this thread are trolling you just for the lulz. Like I said, it doesn't matter to anyone except for someone it matters too.

Click to expand...

Who's trolling? We're all going back and forth having a discussion, except you who feels the need to splice in your pre-school talking points for added flavor. If I was really going to nitpick, I'd point out how you meant to write "scrutinize" when you wrote "generalize", and wrote "too" instead of "to". Now scram.

Re: ULTRATITLE Rd. 3 Br. 3+4 Unofficial Post-RP Predictions Thread!

Piss off, I was writing from a 4 inch screen at work.

You're just mad because girls eWrestle.

Re: ULTRATITLE Rd. 3 Br. 3+4 Unofficial Post-RP Predictions Thread!

Justin said:

Piss off, I was writing from a 4 inch screen at work.

You're just mad because girls eWrestle.

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LOL, I could care less. We're just philosophizing, my dear friend. If you paid attention, we were all mostly talking about WWE/Real life wrestling. I really, truly, have no issue with the PROTEST Wrestling Divas Championship, I think it's great that men hold it too, and those little wrestling men in your avatars are just adorable.

It's not the size of the screen that counts, btw.

Re: ULTRATITLE Rd. 3 Br. 3+4 Unofficial Post-RP Predictions Thread!

AngerManagement said:

Unless you're handling Brienne of Tarth, in my mind every man vs woman e-wresting match looks like this in my mind when I read it:

VIDEO

From a "two people fighting" perspective: Yuki Ishikawa can and does easily dominate this match with strength but is not allowed to strike his opponent. Kana does deliver stiff kicks but only because her opponent stands still and allows her to. In the end, she wins because she picked scissors when he picked paper.

From a "sports entertainment" perspective: Amusing match because no real effort was made in the fight. Ishikawa is the heel because he makes fun of the sexualized nature of his opponent and the physical reality of the match. Kana is the face because she's weak and facing an old man pervert. They're both laughing, so there are no "fighting" stakes. This is some silly business unconnected to what would happen if these two were actually fighting each other.

...which makes it problematic in a hobby that often imagines itself a simulation of real world professional wrestling but determines victory in legitimately fought battles based on who cut the best pre-match promo.

It comes down to a question of "how real do you need this unreal thing that we're pretending to do to be for you to enjoy pretending to do it?"

Click to expand...

Way to post a contextless video to make a shoddy case. Are you a follower of the current puro/joshi scene, or did you just go YouTubing for a clip that would prove your confirmation bias? Here's the real story:

1 - It was a comedy tournament where all matches had a 3 minute time limit where all draws were decided ro-sham-bo style.

2 - A woman won said tournament.

3 - Kana and Ishikawa train together and have wrestled in serious matches against each other.

4 - Kana has wrestled Tajiri and Finlay among others and they sure as **** respect her.

5 - this video right here - http://youtu.be/ueymgBc5nSQ

You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.

Re: ULTRATITLE Rd. 3 Br. 3+4 Unofficial Post-RP Predictions Thread!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4xpOsCcWIw

Re: ULTRATITLE Rd. 3 Br. 3+4 Unofficial Post-RP Predictions Thread!

LQJT86C said:

I'm not down for the homophobic slurs, but I'm pretty sure "girls can't fight as well as guys" is aka COMMON SENSE. Come on, I thought you were a man of science?

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I'm on the Internet pretending to be a professional wrestler who swears once every six seconds during television promos. Not really sure where science comes into play, but ladies fighting dudes is the least of our problems.

Re: ULTRATITLE Rd. 3 Br. 3+4 Unofficial Post-RP Predictions Thread!

TH said:

Way to post a contextless video to make a shoddy case.

Click to expand...

Way to completely miss my point.

My point wasn't that "this is what all intergender matches are like"--but in admitting that, for me, "unless the female character is created as an unusually large warrior type, this comedy match is what I see in my mind when I read an e-wrestling intergender match," my point was that each of us has to determine how real our communal fantasy has to be in order for us to enjoy it.

For me, ewrestling intergender matches too often break past my ability to believe that it simulates what I'm pretending to participate in (which is not the puro/joshi scene)...and I end up laughing at, not laughing with, the results.

But, to ignore Leo McGarry and accept the premise of your argument for discussion's sake...

1) It was a comedy tournament where all matches had a 3 minute time limit where all draws were decided ro-sham-bo style.
--I know it was a comedy tournament...which is why I used that clip. Remember, the clip was supposed to express what I see in my mind.

2) A woman won said tournament.
--How does it help your argument that a woman won a comedy tournament? The whole concept of "winning" seems to be markish.


3 & 4) Kana and Ishikawa train together and have wrestled in serious matches against each other. Kana has wrestled Tajiri and Finlay among others and they sure as **** respect her.
--I specifically chose this Kana match because Kana has respect. (Imagine if I picked AJ and said "see, women can't be serious competitors against men" what your response would be.) I'm not disrespecting what Kana does in the ring. I'm saying that for all of her effort and all of her training and all of her respect...it doesn't work for me.

5) this video right here - http://youtu.be/ueymgBc5nSQ
--I've seen that compilation before (as well as one pushing Kana's appearance in the US for Shimmer.) Again, I'm struck by the following: GUYS STAND IN FRONT OF HER WHILE SHE KICKS THEM. And, at least this collection of footage shows a man striking her (both times it's her training partner Ishikawa, who, each time, gets in one pushy-punch/chop/slap) and both times the GUY STANDS THERE AND LETS HER KICK HIM.

And that's fine, because it's professional wrestling and professional wrestling isn't real...and as long as the efed I'm in cops to that level of unreality and I'm willing to participate in it, then I'm fine with it. (If I was in a puro/joshi-based fed, then I'd expect...no, I'd DEMAND that this stuff happens.)

But, as I said in my original post, this crazy hobby of ours puts us in position to imagine that wrestling matches are legitimately fought (Irish whips and needing your opponent to help you achieve most moves, not withstanding) and that we determine who wins these matches by who writes better pretend pre-match promos...so, even discussing "what's real" and what isn't sends you too far down the rabbit hole to be of any use.

Which leads me back to my original post's final question: "How real do you need this unreal thing that we're pretending to do to be for you to enjoy pretending to do it?"

Evidently, for me...big fat guys with mullets pretending to fight each other is ok but big fat guys pretending to fight women makes me laugh, more often than not.

And yes, that's stupid. And that was my point.

Re: ULTRATITLE Rd. 3 Br. 3+4 Unofficial Post-RP Predictions Thread!

AngerManagement said:

Way to completely miss my point.

My point wasn't that "this is what all intergender matches are like"--but in admitting that, for me, "unless the female character is created as an unusually large warrior type, this comedy match is what I see in my mind when I read an e-wrestling intergender match," my point was that each of us has to determine how real our communal fantasy has to be in order for us to enjoy it.

For me, ewrestling intergender matches too often break past my ability to believe that it simulates what I'm pretending to participate in (which is not the puro/joshi scene)...and I end up laughing at, not laughing with, the results.

But, to ignore Leo McGarry and accept the premise of your argument for discussion's sake...

1) It was a comedy tournament where all matches had a 3 minute time limit where all draws were decided ro-sham-bo style.
--I know it was a comedy tournament...which is why I used .....................

Click to expand...

STOP!

You had me at Leo McGarry.....

*sniffle*

You had me at Leo McGarry.

Re: ULTRATITLE Rd. 3 Br. 3+4 Unofficial Post-RP Predictions Thread!

JLevinson said:

I'm on the Internet pretending to be a professional wrestler who swears once every six seconds during television promos. Not really sure where science comes into play, but ladies fighting dudes is the least of our problems.

Click to expand...

You were the one mocking a statement of obvious truth.

Let's be honest though, swearing every six seconds only puts you on par with ECW. A much better example would have been, "I pretend to be a professional wrestler who doesn't age."