RP vs ANGLE

[Steve]

Just a little something to spur discussion, or completely be ignored. You know, whatever works, really.

Starting out on Prodigy in 1992 the CSWA's changed with the times, as both Chad and I's desires dictated and the FW community.

The first year on Prodigy we used the imfamous dice system, a rather brilliantly (cough) constructed, enjoyable system that kept a wrestler's strength tied to being 'odd' or 'even'. Most of the matches were tension filled, but not all together dependent on luck. There was a skill to developing a character's move list, and debating whether a bad roll (i.e. one against your man) hit an illegal object or didn't get enough elevation under it to start with (i.e. Sean May). Jon Katz's very own Mike Randalls won his first world title at the hands of the 30, 12, 10, and 8 sided die. See, there was a method to the madness. The dice knew! I remember some of that match..Randalls beating Flic Rair and Chad and I thinking, "Should we roll the pin again? I mean....who's Mike Randalls?" Though Chad was known to cheat, I never did...so being the voice of reason, Randalls' victory was upheld, and I'd say Jon has gone on to prove my decision to be the right one.

By '93 there was a growing amount of chatter, from members and non-members alike that we should adapt to 'RP' form of booking matches. We did, mainly because it was easier than rolling dice. That's where the league remains now. Judging matches on quality of role-play.

But...what about angles?

(dramatic beat, cue Hitchcock: "There's been a murrrrrrrrder.")

Taken into account, a backbone of the CSWA, and most any league now.

Obviously running a league has advanced from posting 'open challenge' notes, collecting and signing matches then letting the boys and girls go at it. Most lineups are prebooked now, which begs the question, "why do we still role-play?"

Is FW still a 'game' where card to card you're competing against another handler, or should leagues mirror real wrestling? Are we all apart of a booking team that's creating a final product for others and ourselves to enjoy?

The Eli Flair/Windham match at ANNIVERSARY that neither Pete and i have roleplayed for, for some reason has been set up for six months (CSWA TIME 2 weeks), the finish prebooked, and a new angle spinning from the finish. Does this make roleplay any less enjoyable?

Not for me. I love the week to week competition rp for the NFW, but with this match the fun was in planning the match and writing a rp series that sadly never quite materalized fully, but it was there.

My question is where do you see yourself? A week to week warrior, or a long-term booker?

I find it hillarious when handlers talk to me today about protecting their win/loss record, as if, if they were to lose a match they'll have to be talked into staying with the league. In this game you're going to lose, period. There's nothing I despise more (okay Dook) than someone building their character as a inmoveable object, a shoot figher so to speak who just cannot lose. His or her character would be immeasurably damaged by a loss, because he's the toughest man in wrestling!!

Kurt Angle takes losses. Who in that WWE locker room could actually pin him? Lesner?

We're telling a story, and golden boy characters are a bore to me. The idea that someone could struggle with playing off "a loss" is laughable. It's FW wrestling people.

Although in losses, or matches its of major importance in how a character is handled.

Again, i like the NFW old-school format, though I'm sure some matches have been prebooked, and others left to angles, for the most part it's competition role-play, and ba ba ba ba i'm lovin' it.

What do you look for in role-play? Can role-play wars turn into more than: "You have bad hair." "Man, your wife is a skank." "I beat you once, I beat you again." "Yeah right."

Okay i'm actually posting that as the first Windham role-play to Eli. But, moving along.......is rp more than name-calling? Is it a game of who's the wittiest?

You get to a point, well I do at least, when how do you judge some of this? Who do you choose?

Angles? Long-term booking?

I look at the FWO (and other leagues like it) and think in some respects they 'get it'. That's the model I'd like the CSWA to use, but having recently joined there's much i'd change.

In the FWO role-play is recreational.

Handlers activity in the league is based on writing their own matches for cards (in narrative form) and any card segments, crash tv style or otherwise.

In some respects that makes perfect sense. All energy focused on getting cards up. The fwo moves like wild fire and the attractiveness in that is a big-time selling point.

However, as to my involvment in the league it's too angle based. Maybe that's just because i've spent so many years doing it one way. Finding your own matches in the league, essentially being left to book yourself has been a major letdown for me. In the fwo you're part of the writing team, and less of a character handler.

I've found that to steal a lot of my preacceptance into the league excitement. Having to scamper on AOL IM, or the message boards to ask for matches, and then decide who 'goes over' this week is so alien to his cold, black heart. At some point yes long term angles should come into play and handlers could book themselves for a while, but week to week it appears easy to be left out in the cold. But thats probably completely by own doing. There's nothing stopping me from signging onto the message board and saying, "Guys i need a match for Ruahh" and I'd probably get one.

Accepting that dramatic of a change in style has been hard.

But...i think the direction the CSWA needs to go, and a lot of where some of us are going, is a mixture of the two schools.

I'd want someone to book me, tell me who i'm facing week to week and who's going over, but more hands writing the cards, and more people brainstorming about angles for their characters is the way to go.

I"m ranting. Any thoughts to any of this?

Do win/loss records in FW matter?

Is a RP fed the best?

Is RP dead?

Am I the spawn of Louie Anderson for finding some fault with the FWO?

Will UCONN do the world a favor and beat Dook?

Does Marlena's recent serial killer turn mean a Marlena/Roman reunion is out of the picture?

Will the Lawerence Brothers ever work again?

And will Pete Russo begin talking in one-word replies in the near future?


These questions and more answered on the next.........."Tom Sigel Show".

(shudders trying to imagine that. It'd have to be "100 questions with Tom Sigel". That's the format. Heh.)

 

[JLevinson]

Interesting

I think you bring up a few good points, Steve. However, the situation can be very complex, and when people tend to pour so much energy into their characters, you get very passionate about them, and when YOUR vision for your character is cast aside for the President's vision for your character, it can be frustration.

However, this is a "necessary evil." I think one of the things you've stumbled on is the inherent subjectivity of FW in general. One person may think a character is the greatest thing ever, while another may think he's overrated.

So if we work on the assumpion that FW is, as its core, subjective, then I think the things we should consider most are respect and enjoyment.

On one hand, I believe effort should be rewarded, even if you don't consider a character "great." For instance, one of the reasons I've fallen in love with WFW is that even when Paul writes someone as losing, if they put forth a halfway decent effort, he makes it a point to treat that character with respect and dignity, and to write his matches as such.

Personally, I enjoy feds that are based almost equally on RP quality and storylines. On one hand, you have to consider the direction of the league, and on the other, the effort and skill put forth by the RPers.

Often, people become so obsessed with winning and losing that they forget that this isn't a video game, and that there is no overall template for how "good" someone is. I know plenty of people who loves my characters, and probably an equal number who think I'm overrated. Everyone's entitled to their opinion.

When choosing a league, I think it's important to be able to speak with the FedHead at length about the vision of your character and where it stands in the fed. Right now, in WFW, I'm not contending for a title shot, but I'm having a great time, because my vision for my character is being carried out as I've requested, and as I feel I "deserve" for putting forth as much RP effort as I can.

Do wins and losses matter? To some extent. I don't appreciate jobbing to someone who no-shows, but if someone gives me an RP battle and I lose, then that's fine. My character may take personal offense, but he is, at his core, just a character.

And I do not think that RP is dead. I think that there are a lot of great RPers out there, and I think there's been a great influx of talent from non-FW places recently, and I love to see new talent develop.

At times, I do feel as if my own characters have grown stagnant, but ultimately, this is about having a good time, and that's why I RP. My vision for my character is why I do this, and why I RP, and why I join leagues. I enjoy watching that vision play out, and not necessarily in the EXACT way in which I want, because what fun would that be?

Ultimately, there is no one "right" way to run a Fed, as there is no one "right" way to RP a character. There are so many different ways to approach FW, and that's one of the great things about it. You can join a league where everyone votes (A1E), or you can join a league where everything is about the booking and writing (fWo), or you can join a strict RP fed (NFW?), or a fed that combines the aspects of RP and storyline (most of the others).

Quite frankly, I'm glad for the old dice system, as I probably never would've won the CSWA EN Title, but times have changed, and with them, RP styles and cardwriting. It's important for each league to evolve as its own vision grows bigger.

In closing, I'd just like to say that, though we must accept the subjectivity of FW in general, I think it's important to consider the effort put forth by each character, and a great FedHead will treat each of his members with an equal amount of respect while trying to create a bigger, coherent whole.

Which... of course, is easier said than done.

-Josh

PS - Don't worry, UConn will trounce Duke. GO HUSKIES!!!

 

[TSiegel]

:::Looks over at Steve:::

Ladies and Gentlemen, Jason Hervey's number one fan,

Just for that....I hope to god that UConn tears Duke a new one.

-Tom

 

[Winters]

Go Duke! *ducks onslaught of trash and harmful objects that are sure to be thrown*

 

[Steve]

haha

Go Dook.

That serves ya right

And the annual save UNC's season by Dook not winning the title is a success. I can breath now.

 

[PaulNJ21]

Obviously running a league has advanced from posting 'open challenge' notes, collecting and signing matches then letting the boys and girls go at it. Most lineups are prebooked now, which begs the question, "why do we still role-play?"

Roleplaying should be fun and I think too many people look at it as a chore. I think angle leagues do help RPers who have been worn down and can't really RP like they want to a regular basis, but the emotional investment isn't the same.

Is FW still a 'game' where card to card you're competing against another handler, or should leagues mirror real wrestling? Are we all apart of a booking team that's creating a final product for others and ourselves to enjoy?

Pro Wrestling is a real life game where others are competing against their peers for position. They may be having worked matches in the ring, but the quality of what they do inside and out determines where they are on the card. You may be all working together towards one final product for everyone, but that doesn't mean that RPers should plan out their own outcomes or angles.

I hate that with a passion. There are maybe a handful of people who could handle booking themselves and their own angles. Just because you are a good RPer, doesn't mean that are always great at angles or know how to do what is right for others.

The Eli Flair/Windham match at ANNIVERSARY that neither Pete and i have roleplayed for, for some reason has been set up for six months (CSWA TIME 2 weeks), the finish prebooked, and a new angle spinning from the finish. Does this make roleplay any less enjoyable?

Not for me. I love the week to week competition rp for the NFW, but with this match the fun was in planning the match and writing a rp series that sadly never quite materalized fully, but it was there.

I just don't see the point in spending hours writing something, caring about quality, when both people involved know the outcome. Why spend the time writing the match?

My question is where do you see yourself? A week to week warrior, or a long-term booker?

I find it hillarious when handlers talk to me today about protecting their win/loss record, as if, if they were to lose a match they'll have to be talked into staying with the league. In this game you're going to lose, period. There's nothing I despise more (okay Dook) than someone building their character as a inmoveable object, a shoot figher so to speak who just cannot lose. His or her character would be immeasurably damaged by a loss, because he's the toughest man in wrestling!!

I blame this on the fact that a lot of match writers today don't know how to write a match, book a match, or handle characters accurately. Some are down right awful at this and it is so simple to do it correctly.

We're telling a story, and golden boy characters are a bore to me. The idea that someone could struggle with playing off "a loss" is laughable. It's FW wrestling people.

RPers are writers. They have egos. You can't treat everyone the same because people are different. You have to understand how to get the most out of people. If you know that as a President, you'll be fine.

Although in losses, or matches its of major importance in how a character is handled.

It sure is.

What do you look for in role-play? Can role-play wars turn into more than: "You have bad hair." "Man, your wife is a skank." "I beat you once, I beat you again." "Yeah right."

Okay i'm actually posting that as the first Windham role-play to Eli. But, moving along.......is rp more than name-calling? Is it a game of who's the wittiest?

One thing I've noticed since I've been back is that some people's RP is really, really whinny and it is not a good trend.

People resort to name calling, complain about others repeating themselves, putting down their competition....

It gets really annoying to read.

You get to a point, well I do at least, when how do you judge some of this? Who do you choose?

Entertaining and says something...

I look at the FWO (and other leagues like it) and think in some respects they 'get it'. That's the model I'd like the CSWA to use, but having recently joined there's much i'd change.

In the FWO role-play is recreational.

Handlers activity in the league is based on writing their own matches for cards (in narrative form) and any card segments, crash tv style or otherwise.

In some respects that makes perfect sense. All energy focused on getting cards up. The fwo moves like wild fire and the attractiveness in that is a big-time selling point.

FWO could kill fantasy wrestling for a lot of people.

However, as to my involvment in the league it's too angle based. Maybe that's just because i've spent so many years doing it one way. Finding your own matches in the league, essentially being left to book yourself has been a major letdown for me. In the fwo you're part of the writing team, and less of a character handler.

What have you accomplished? What have you earned? What satisfaction do you get out of that?

If you are in a league and you book yourself to become a World Champion, why is that important? Why should others respect you?

I've found that to steal a lot of my preacceptance into the league excitement. Having to scamper on AOL IM, or the message boards to ask for matches, and then decide who 'goes over' this week is so alien to his cold, black heart. At some point yes long term angles should come into play and handlers could book themselves for a while, but week to week it appears easy to be left out in the cold. But thats probably completely by own doing. There's nothing stopping me from signging onto the message board and saying, "Guys i need a match for Ruahh" and I'd probably get one.

See, to me that is no fun... I want people to want to win a match. Indifference to losing is just as bad if not worse than being a pain in the ass about losing.

But...i think the direction the CSWA needs to go, and a lot of where some of us are going, is a mixture of the two schools.

I'd want someone to book me, tell me who i'm facing week to week and who's going over, but more hands writing the cards, and more people brainstorming about angles for their characters is the way to go.

Running a league has and will always be a mixture of RPing and angles. But eliminating one or the other is very, very bad because leagues need to have a sense of direction for coherence and for people to have confidence in the league.

Am I the spawn of Louie Anderson for finding some fault with the FWO?

FWO should die a fiery death and stop spreading its cancer to these boards. ;->

Does Marlena's recent serial killer turn mean a Marlena/Roman reunion is out of the picture?

Well, if Marlena is really dead, no ;->

Paul

 

[Hex Angel]

Another reply will follow... but this is for Tard.

Yes.

 

[Winters]

FWO could kill fantasy wrestling for a lot of people.

There is one thing I can say. Don't knock something until you try it. I can understand that you've been doing it one way for so long. It's set in black and white for you and this is all you see, anything else and it's not worth trying. You thrive on the competition with the other writers. Am I right?

I think you're being a huge Pat Buchanan on the subject.

I've been apart of the fWo for three years, and in fantasy wrestling for seven. No, not as long as some of you, but I've gone through role-play based feds and angle-based feds. And to be honest, I enjoy angle-based feds much more.

However, I am one of the more active role-players in the fed. I believe in using role-plays to enhance the story I'm trying to tell, inside and outside of the ring on a personal level. While competition is nice, I get much more satisfaction out of planning something and then working on it. Seeing something I've created coming into fruition over time gives me a sense of pride and accomplishment. The competition of role-playing against another person is great, but I think there are many more benefeits to working with someone to write something that will make yourself, and other people happy.

Who cares if you know the outcome? Or if you're having a competition? Isn't this game supposed to be fun?

-Justin

 

[AUMedina]

Personally, having participated in both RP and Angle feds, I prefer RP feds more.

Angles feds are good in telling a story, however, in some way, you don't feel like you have control over your wrestler. Matches are predetermined, so any level of participating in terms of writing feels like it has no meaning to it.

Also, knowing the outcome really ruins reading the results of a match. I mean, if you knew you were going to win the match, why bother reading it? Just to see how it came out?

That's what I like about RP feds. The fact that each match you're in is different, and each outcome is something new.

Will your wrestler go on a winning streak? Or will he be in a slump? That of course depends on the person who writes the RPs.

Also competition if fun in that each time it's something different. When in an angle fed, you know what to expect.

Try to think of an angle fed as writing a book. You know what you're writing in each chapter. But now think of a RP fed as choose-your-own-adventure story, only you're writing what happens every time based on something different happening.

And whose to say angle don't work in RP feds? In the NWL, to me, all matches are determined based on RPs. Angles have no influence on who wins a match. But angles play an important part in the NWL. I always think of a win or lose angle for each outcome for the sole fact that it becomes open ended for all parties involved. I let the members create their own angles and storylines because they know their wrestlers more than I ever will.

I think by having members get involved in the storylines and angles, but having one sole person, an owner of the fed, determine the outcomes of the matches, gives it the best balance.

Plus in an RP fed, some RPs become more fun to read due to competiton. It kind of gives a reason for people to tell the story of their wrestler. When you take away the win or loss aspect out of a match, there is little to no motivation for members to write.

With the exception of wanting fWo to die, even though I don't even get it, I agree with mostly all the points Paul made.

 

[PaulNJ21]

However, I am one of the more active role-players in the fed. I believe in using role-plays to enhance the story I'm trying to tell, inside and outside of the ring on a personal level. While competition is nice, I get much more satisfaction out of planning something and then working on it.

Without RP that matters, you aren't really developing characters. It is bad writing. It is plot without substance.

Seeing something I've created coming into fruition over time gives me a sense of pride and accomplishment. The competition of role-playing against another person is great, but I think there are many more benefeits to working with someone to write something that will make yourself, and other people happy.

Who cares if you know the outcome? Or if you're having a competition? Isn't this game supposed to be fun?

I guess we should tell all of the NFL and MLB not to keep score because it is the joy of the game that matters not the outcomes ;->

They could all hug at the end. It would be great. ::mumbles under breath:: Damn hippies.

Wrestling is both sport and entertainment. I think people are forgetting the sports element to it.

Paul

 

[PaulNJ21]

With the exception of wanting fWo to die, even though I don't even get it, I agree with mostly all the points Paul made.

The FWO is a very dangerous idea because Steve isn't the first one who brought that up. I've had numerous conversations with Katz who loves the system to death.

Every time something goes wrong, people want to reinvent the wheel instead of fixing the problems.

You have to push new talent, you have to create new talent, you have bring in younger talent with energy to inspire older talent, you have to keep your older talent which can still go happy, you have to weed out or demote older talent who are barely into it anymore, you have to have a reason for people facing each other, you can't let the champion stagnate, you can't change the titles too quickly, you have to get cards on a regular basis so people stay interested...

It isn't brain surgery.

Paul

 

[Hex Angel]

Without RP that matters, you aren't really developing characters. It is bad writing. It is plot without substance.



I guess we should tell all of the NFL and MLB not to keep score because it is the joy of the game that matters not the outcomes ;->

They could all hug at the end. It would be great. ::mumbles under breath:: Damn hippies.

Wrestling is both sport and entertainment. I think people are forgetting the sports element to it.

Paul

Paul, you should try *reading* something before you tell Grover that his writing is "bad writing" and "plot without substance." And you should try to learn something about the fWo before you declare yourself an expert at all things angle-fed.

The difference is that the fWo has two shows a week. Every week, unless there's a fed-wide angle that prevents it, there is a show on Monday and on Thursday. Can you name another fed that puts out two shows a week without fail?

That takes care of the 'sports' aspect of it.

On-card segments and off-card RPs give plenty of character development. In fact, it typically gives *more* development than in an RP-based fed, because you can write the developmental stuff without having to worry about 'Did I address my opponent properly? Can I write and plan this stuff for next week's shows without knowing if I won tonight? Can I count on the show being up, or did the fedhead/cardwriter go out tonight and not post it?

Personally, I like the fact that in the fWo, everyone is responsible for writing their own matches and segments. It shows the rest of the fed who wants to do well and who doesn't.

There's the difference. You're saying that you can only develop a character when you RP competitively against someone else, but the fWo has extremely well- developed characters without the direct competition of it all.

No, it's not for everyone, but it's certainly not 'inferior' as you're making it out to be.

And as far as Steve and I booking Windham/Flair is concerned, tell me - why not? Can Mark Windham move up the CSWA's rankings anymore? Can Eli Flair? Whoever loses, do they suddenly become less likely as a World Title contender?

Considering the fact that the answer to all those questions is 'no' - then I ask, why shouldn't we godbook things to make the most interesting story possible?

The one thing that's prompted me to reply, Paul, is that you couldn't do one simple thing and admit that you don't know anything about the fWo beyond what's been posted in this thread.

But that's probably too much to ask.

 

[PaulNJ21]

The difference is that the fWo has two shows a week. Every week, unless there's a fed-wide angle that prevents it, there is a show on Monday and on Thursday. Can you name another fed that puts out two shows a week without fail?

No I can't, but I don't really think that is a good thing. Even in the WWE you saw the product burn out when guys were on both shows which is partially why they did the brand split.

Creative people need time to RP and come up with good storylines in order to avoid burning out. Even without the RP, most people would burn out in an angle league.

A play could have five shows a week. That doesn't make it a sport.

On-card segments and off-card RPs give plenty of character development. In fact, it typically gives *more* development than in an RP-based fed, because you can write the developmental stuff without having to worry about 'Did I address my opponent properly? Can I write and plan this stuff for next week's shows without knowing if I won tonight? Can I count on the show being up, or did the fedhead/cardwriter go out tonight and not post it?

You can do that all in most properly run non angle feds too as long as the booker has a good sense of story.

Personally, I like the fact that in the fWo, everyone is responsible for writing their own matches and segments. It shows the rest of the fed who wants to do well and who doesn't.

Are most people actually qualified to write a wrestling match? I've known some really good RPers who weren't all that great at putting together a wrestling match. And how is it good writing if the announcers are consistantly different (even if not by much) for each match?

There's the difference. You're saying that you can only develop a character when you RP competitively against someone else, but the fWo has extremely well- developed characters without the direct competition of it all.

Character and storyline are not the same thing. As Mick Foley said, there should always be a bit of reality to every storyline to drive the angle. How can someone react to a devasting loss or a huge win without having gone through it properly?

And as far as Steve and I booking Windham/Flair is concerned, tell me - why not? Can Mark Windham move up the CSWA's rankings anymore? Can Eli Flair? Whoever loses, do they suddenly become less likely as a World Title contender?

Considering the fact that the answer to all those questions is 'no' - then I ask, why shouldn't we godbook things to make the most interesting story possible?

You've hit your head on the problem right there. You've both gotten to the point where RPing against each other isn't necessary. Maybe if you had new people, new characters and new match ups, you'd actually care about RPing because you really should care about RPing against Steve Thomas because he is damn good and it should be fun.

Paul

 

[Brock]

Paul, your the reason why people do not come and join this community.

You sir are the door shutter.

And other people like you.

When a topic is brought up about angle fedding in general you've proven your opinion, you've stated it, do you need to defend, bash, and destroy other peoples hard work?

No I can't, but I don't really think that is a good thing. Even in the WWE you saw the product burn out when guys were on both shows which is partially why they did the brand split.

Creative people need time to RP and come up with good storylines in order to avoid burning out. Even without the RP, most people would burn out in an angle league.

A play could have five shows a week. That doesn't make it a sport.

So your calling everyone in the fWo non-creative while you've never read a single one of our shows? You never followed the fed, but you have the gall to call us uncreative? Are you Steve King? Are you J.R.R. Tolkien? Are you one of the greatest authors ever?

No your not, your a peice of crap on a message forum who enjoys taking other peoples work down because they don't do it your way.

Your a raving moron with no clue of any thing your talking about. Please... Wake yourself up and stopped being a close minded ****. Stop avoiding change.

Here is a challenge.

Go to the fWo, read the Donovan Winters roleplays and tell me that he is an undeveloped character that is stupid.

Read the Eli Flair roleplays.

Read the Kellen Kinkade roleplays

Read the Aimz roleplays

Read the Scott Slugger roleplays (newer stuff, from around 2002-onwards).

Hell even read my roleplays and see how my character distinctly changed due to reason. (I handle Rush btw.)

Read The Boston Strangler

Read Jon Crisp

Read these characters...

And tell me they are not developed.

Because you'll prove yourself to be even more than a moron than you're already making yourself out to be.

(Also read the shows from around the roleplay series time, and see if you can see a change of reaction to the people, if you can find the reaction, and the changes.)

Thanks,
Brock
-Enjoys RP feds

 

[Winters]

Paul, firstly I'm disgusted that you're taking a shot at myself and my colleagues, basically saying in more words that we suck. You haven't read anything related to the fWo and you say we suck. You're allowed to have an opinion, yes. But how can you say anything about something if you have no knowledge about the subject?

True or false: The only thing you currently know about the fWo is what Steve stated in the beginning of his subject?

True. And you admitted it.

So please, before you decide to insult myself (you know you did) and Pete, and Brock and everyone else who has come here recently in hopes of intelligent discussion, read some of the things we've done. In fact, I'll start you off with a link, since everything I've contributed to fantasy wrestling in the past three years is plot without substance.

fWo Interviews: Donaven Winters

If you want to say I still suck and have no substance, fine. That'll be your opinion. But don't ever base a fruitless opinion when you don't have the information.

-Justin

 

[AUMedina]

Alright gentlemen, game's over.

Thanks for participating, but that's enough. Thread is closed.

If you continue this on these forums with another thread, I will take action.

That is all.

Andrew