An Intelligent Discussion... ?

[JLevinson]

Hey Andrew:

I don't mean to stoke a raging fire, but I don't see why we can't continue to discuss this in a civil and responsible fashion.

Let me say that I don't know that much about fWo -- I've been to their website, and it's ridiculously professional. I didn't really read much about it, as I'm not in it, and I don't have all the time in the world to research this kind of stuff.

That being said, what seems to me is that we have two completely different ways of looking at FW. One sees it as more a competition; the other sees it as a combination of angles and storylines for a greater whole.

Let me remind everyone that FW is, essentially, a game we've all invented. It has no real rules, just etiquette. There's no right or wrong way to do it; just preferences.

Though I can't agree with Paul's statement that it's just "bad writing without substance," as I haven't read any of the cards, I don't think it's very respectful to call him names. If you want to refute his argument, people would be far more impressed by doing so intelligently and respectfully, instead of resorting to name-calling.

Now that I got that out of the way, what my understanding of fWo is that everyone seems to write the cards themselves. I'm not sure how the winners are decided; I guess by compromise? Someone will have to explain it to me.

However, I think this loses some sport aspect to it. I don't WANT to know if I'm going to win ahead of time. I wouldn't write my matches if I had to. If someone is going to make a surprise appearance or interference in my match, I LIKE for it to be a surprise.

To me, if I wrote the match where I won the World Title, it just doesn't feel the same. Without the element of surprise, I feel something lacking.

It seems to me that fWo sort of reminds me of the fan fiction sites, where everyone writes a paragraph of a story related to their favorite comic book or video game or whatever. Everyone contributes to the greater whole, and the challenge is to make the whole thing interesting.

FWCentral, on the other hand, uses RP as a direct competition. There is, unfortunately, the problem of subjectivity -- and that what makes someone a "better" RPer than someone else is completely up to opinion. However, if we realize this, and try not to take it too personally, I don't see it as a huge problem.

One thing Steve mentioned was how between Melton and Flair have faced off so many times, it's pointless who wins. But aren't there solutions?

You don't HAVE to stick with the same character forever. Or, you could take your old characters into different places. This encourages us to constantly change our characters, to have them evolve, to push them to different levels.

Personally, from my own experience, I prefer the RP feds, where I can focus on what I do best: character development and promoing. I don't write matches well, and that's not my passion. I like to face off against different people in a battle of the wits and see who wins -- and I don't mind losing (though my characters do )

Finally, let me get back to what I originally posted: this is about respect, and when we can't treat each other with respect, it doesn't matter WHAT format you use -- people will get angry and frustrated, and that's not good for FW in general.

I encourage you all to chill the F out and stop the name-calling, as nobody ever made an intelligent argument by calling someone else a moron.

Have a good afternoon, and sorry about posting, Andrew, but it seemed necessary.

-- Josh

 

[JLebron]

well stated Josh.....

-Joe

 

[PaulNJ21]

Just to clear something up publically before this is ended.

Just for the record, I never stated that the RPers in FWO were bad. I just called the process bad as a writer who has a BA from Rutgers University in English.

I have read FWO before because one of my RPers was in it and wanted me to join but I declined but I don't understand how it is valid to the argument. I personally don't like it, but that doesn't matter to me because I only join leagues on FWCentral. My concern was more of its influence spreading over here which is why I posted.

I never thought that people would become this enraged when trying to have an intelligent discussion so to honor Medina I will drop the topic entirely.

If anyone wants to discuss this with me on AIM, my name is PaulNJ21. Thank you.

Paul

 

[Steve]

Don't mind Josh, he's a huskie

<<One thing Steve mentioned was how between Melton and Flair have faced off so many times, it's pointless who wins. But aren't there solutions?

You don't HAVE to stick with the same character forever. Or, you could take your old characters into different places. This encourages us to constantly change our characters, to have them evolve, to push them to different levels.>>

when did i say that? I'm too lazy to go back and read my post. Heh. I'll swallow hard and say i never said that.


re: Winning the World Title.

Angle/Rp Fed it's handler vs character. For Me it's fun when Windham or Melton wins. In angle feds, your surprise and how you outlet that surprise and enjoyment comes through via your character. You're in his/her head and less your own.

re: Miller

I would think as an English major you'd enjoy good writing, or writing for the sake of writing. Right?

How is the angle based process wrong?

"Different."

"Not for me."

But not wrong.

I don't see where you're coming from on a lot of these points.

 

[QueenOfTheRing]

I just called the process bad as a writer who has a BA from Rutgers University in English.

I'm getting a BA in English from the University of Rhode Island, and I don't see how the "process" is "bad", especially since I'm participating in the fWo.

Also, let the discussion happen. It's the only way to share opinions and viewpoints. Locking threads doesn't do that.

Just my opinion...

 

[jediPREZ]

Wow - I have class for 12 hours this weekend and I can come back to this?

Let's take a deep breath and inhale a doobie snack for a moment...

...

Ok.

I think everyone has gotten off the wrong foot here. I didn't read everything in-depth, but I know Paul wouldn't call people bad writers without looking at what's being written.

For those that enjoy the "not-knowing" aspect of this hobby - like Josh stated, you should be in an RP fed on FWC. You're in it mostly for the competition, RPing against opponents, not knowing what to expect...and just some of the storytelling, etc...

As for being a bad process for writers...I'd actually think RP feds are worse since you're confined to a limited subject each time you write unless you have inordinate amounts of time to write general RPs. I've always felt its easier to develop your character away from match threads than within them. I've also maintained that you should stick to your match in the match threads...so yeah, I just talked in a circle.

Looking back at the GWE, NWL, NEW, GLCW, WFW, etc...general RP's rarely happen compared to other leagues. I remember getting comments from when I'd throw Golden Hawk into other match threads...but it was the only way I could develop stuff outside of whatever match I was in...well, develop stuff in a way I liked.

This isn't a bad thing, this just means most of the writers in those leagues like to stick to the topic at hand.

I liken match threads to that Eminem movie. At the end of the day, most people side with the person that burned the other the most.

And sometimes, I enjoy that style moreso than the fWo or angle fed style. Sometimes those leagues can get too serious and I've never liked all the attempted homicides or successful homicides in those leagues, cause they're not believable to me.

But that ties into the good thing about fWo and other angle leagues...in that you basically have alot more freedom in what you write.

Personally, I like the CSWA and NFW style of trying to combine the good aspects of both...and that's why I've pushed to lessen the 14 RPs under a match thread and take some of that energy and put it on the card...which goes back to Levinson's statement of loving the 'not knowing what to expect' thing.

In the end, its different strokes for different folks.

-BA in English Language and Literature - University of Maryland. Concentration: Mythology and Folklore.

...or just Katz.

 

[Hex Angel]

And the Stoner shall lead them.

*holds up a lighter* Freebird, Katz.

 

[PaulNJ21]

Re: Don't mind Josh, he's a huskie

re: Miller

I would think as an English major you'd enjoy good writing, or writing for the sake of writing. Right?

How is the angle based process wrong?

"Different."

"Not for me."

But not wrong.

I don't see where you're coming from on a lot of these points. [/B]

I love writing and I would rather someone be writing in an angle fed than not writing.

But I think a lot of RPers would lose a lot as writers in the angle system...

Having been around for awhile now, I've seen a lot of RPers transform as writers through the RP/angle system.

One of the things they teach you school early on is that in order to become a better writer, you need to write on a regular basis. I know a lot of younger RPers personally who improved this way. If you make the RPing an unnecessary part of the process, while they may become good at angles, they will be a shell with no inside.

Secondly, failure is one of the great learning tools for anyone in any walk of life. Nobody ever likes to lose, but writers can learn a lot from a bad grade every now in then. They learn to improve their weaknesses and it motivates them to improve their writing and aspire to be something more something more.

You can't get any of that from an angle league and without the atmosphere of competition, you get unbattle tested RPers.

You learn through experience, good and bad. How are all these younger RPers ever going to get the experience they need to improve as writers in that kind of atmosphere?

And even Lindsay agrees with me on this one, how is EVERYONE qualified to write their own wrestling matches? Not every one understands wrestling well enough to write a good match and there are some people quite horrible at it. So even if the storylines wrapped around the matches are very good, if the wrestling is not good, the final product won't be good.

Plus, the system doesn't really reward characters like a Chris Benoit who mainly focus on wrestling, it rewards characters more like Kane who are in these huge angles moving the focus off the wrestling in the fantasy wrestling.

So you have unbattled tested RPers writing matches that most aren't qualified to write but there is a chance that may be good angles wrapped around it... how is that not a bad system?

Paul

 

[AUMedina]

Look everyone, I don't mind having this discussion. I'm not a dictator and I'm not trying to stop people from engaging in an intelligent discussion.

It's when the discussion turns into mud-slinging and name calling that I, as an administrator, have to do my job.

Chad entrusted me with this privledge because he trusts I'll do what's right. And what was right was stopping people from insulting one another to the point that it gives a black eye to FWrestling.com and FW Central.

I'll leave this thread open seeing as there is enough interest to keep the discussion going.

However, and make no mistake I won't be reasonable on this at all, if anyone decides to make this into a personal issue that the insults and vulgarities against another person start up again, I am banning all involved.

I know some of you frequent eWPlanet and are accustomed to the crap that happens on these forums, because most people can't conduct themselves in a civilized manner. It's not going to happen here. I have no problem punishing people for acting uncivilized when they can get their point across in a respectful manner. And if my actions against such means I'm no longer liked by said individual, take a number.

Like I said, the discussion can continue, seems like everyone's civilized and that warms the cockles of my heart. But anyone who decides to come into this dicussion to get people started again will have a week or two to think about their actions.

Are we all agreed on this?

Andrew

 

[Brock]

Paul, the system actually lets you reward yourself as much as the other people in the fed feel you should be rewarded.

It's called having fun with a group of friends, it's what we do. Your statement of complete rubbish saying that the angle fed enviroment doesn't let people develope into writers...

Your full of it. Let me take it this direction, before I was in angle feds, this is how I used to roleplay.

http://www.angelfire.com/ak3/brocksfed/trippin.html

My grammar was hell, it never actually let me develop my character outside of what I debuted him as. I had to focus on the match more than my story. I'm a handler that portrays a character on the internet. This character has feelings outside of kayfabe.

Can you explain those in FWrestling feds? Or does everyone live their gimmick? Because that's unrealistic. The goal is to develop your character through twist and turns in a story. Scott Wasner (aka as Waz) handles a character named Scott Slugger. This character is a cocky legend, the man who won the fWo World Title more than any other man. Off camera he has a cocain addiction and is a driven, evil man.

The contrast is extreme, and makes for an interesting character.

In the fWo what your doing is telling a story of a wrestling promotion with a bunch of individual characters that are all different in their own ways.

Thanks,
Brock

 

[Steve]

<<One of the things they teach you school early on is that in order to become a better writer, you need to write on a regular basis. I know a lot of younger RPers personally who improved this way. If you make the RPing an unnecessary part of the process, while they may become good at angles, they will be a <<shell with no inside.

Mmmmkay this is the last i'm going to add to this subject.

This is directed soley at your comments Paul, not at you personally...

But, you really don't seem to have the faintest idea of what you're talking about. At least in regards to the majority of what you've said about angle feds.

That you need to write more to grow isn't a revelation, I'm sorry.

Do you think the entire league is just a group of kids who love video games sitting around a Katz made fire discussing angles?

Wait...bad example

There's actual writing in the FWO, and other leagues like it. I'd bet a lot more than what goes on in RP feds.

That you suggest angle fed writers don't grow is pretty silly, Paul.

If you don't want to know if you're guy is winning each week. That's cool.

But, you seem to be trying to find fault with a system (in terms of writing) that you have limited knowledge of.

Join the FWO for a month or two and continue your education.

Might be fun.

 

[DBrunkGXW]

Well, I only have one thing to add to all of this.

This is all your fault, Steve.

Time to break out the banning stick, Mr. Medina.

NO WAIT.

Better yet.

Ban all Rod Stewart references.

You must be taught a lesson, Mr. Thomas.

- Dave

 

[Steve]

You shall never take me Rod Away!

"On A Dowwwwwwwwwntooooooooooooooooooooooown


traiiiiiiiiiiiiiin"

More? K.

"Forrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Forrrrrrrrrrrrrrr evvvvvvvvvvvvvvverrrrrrrr

Younggggggg"

 

[Hex Angel]

Brunk....

Get the stick.

 

[PaulNJ21]

Paul, the system actually lets you reward yourself as much as the other people in the fed feel you should be rewarded.

I don't think the inmates should ever be running the asylum because then it becomes a popularity contest.

It's called having fun with a group of friends, it's what we do. Your statement of complete rubbish saying that the angle fed enviroment doesn't let people develope into writers...

Your full of it. Let me take it this direction, before I was in angle feds, this is how I used to roleplay.

I'm very glad that you are having fun. I never said that some people can't have doing one of these leagues.

Secondly, you need to calm down and argue your points civilly. I didn't insult your mother or shoot your dog. When you argue points with words like "rubbish" and use phrases like "Your full of it," instead of merely making your points intelligently it takes away from your argument because you are trying to dismiss the person which is the clearest sign you have lost an argument.

http://www.angelfire.com/ak3/brocksfed/trippin.html

My grammar was hell, it never actually let me develop my character outside of what I debuted him as. I had to focus on the match more than my story. I'm a handler that portrays a character on the internet. This character has feelings outside of kayfabe.

There are good Presidents and bad Presidents in everything. You just happened to have a bad President who wasn't willing to help you along with your character.

The goal is to develop your character through twist and turns in a story. Scott Wasner (aka as Waz) handles a character named Scott Slugger. This character is a cocky legend, the man who won the fWo World Title more than any other man. Off camera he has a cocain addiction and is a driven, evil man.

There is nothing really new about a wrestler with a drug problem. Hardcore drugs, rape, and murder is another reason I dislike angle feds. I don't think wrestling should become the Sopranos.

Paul

 

[PaulNJ21]

<<One of the things they teach you school early on is that in order to become a better writer, you need to write on a regular basis. I know a lot of younger RPers personally who improved this way. If you make the RPing an unnecessary part of the process, while they may become good at angles, they will be a <<shell with no inside.

Mmmmkay this is the last i'm going to add to this subject.

This is directed soley at your comments Paul, not at you personally...

But, you really don't seem to have the faintest idea of what you're talking about. At least in regards to the majority of what you've said about angle feds.

I have someone in my league who has been trying to make the transition into an RP/Angle fed from an angle fed and despite being talented, it has taken him awhile.

That you need to write more to grow isn't a revelation, I'm sorry.

I say this because you are encouraging people to join an angle fed and write less ;->

Do you think the entire league is just a group of kids who love video games sitting around a Katz made fire discussing angles?

Wait...bad example

::remembers FW Torch around NFW War Games:: Yes..

There's actual writing in the FWO, and other leagues like it. I'd bet a lot more than what goes on in RP feds.

That you suggest angle fed writers don't grow is pretty silly, Paul.

I don't think I said they didn't grow, because when you are doing writing of any kind it does help, I just don't believe it helps as much as the RP/angle system.

But, you seem to be trying to find fault with a system (in terms of writing) that you have limited knowledge of.

Join the FWO for a month or two and continue your education.

Might be fun.

I have no desire to be lynched by a guy with cocain problem (Scott Slugger) ;->

Paul

 

[Steve]

Hehe

Noooooooo..not the stick.

Wait...that could be fun

 

[jediPREZ]

NFW War Games = beginning of the end.

Pete knows.

 

[Brock]

I don't think the inmates should ever be running the asylum because then it becomes a popularity contest.

Or it becomes the current champion having a feeling WHO the belt goes to next.

I'm very glad that you are having fun. I never said that some people can't have doing one of these leagues.

Secondly, you need to calm down and argue your points civilly. I didn't insult your mother or shoot your dog. When you argue points with words like "rubbish" and use phrases like "Your full of it," instead of merely making your points intelligently it takes away from your argument because you are trying to dismiss the person which is the clearest sign you have lost an argument.

Did you notice I used those phrases in the BEGINNING then dismissed you later on. Add in everyone who has posted in this thread has said the same things to you Paul. You are full of it because it's rather simple you don't know WHAT your arguing against, your just arguing against the fWo because you have it embedded into your little head that you hate it.

There are good Presidents and bad Presidents in everything. You just happened to have a bad President who wasn't willing to help you along with your character.

Or I could of taken initiative and joined a fed where the president lets ME worry about my character and not forcing some one to worry about 30+ characters.

I don't think over in fWo, Travis would want to worry about 60 characters.

There is nothing really new about a wrestler with a drug problem. Hardcore drugs, rape, and murder is another reason I dislike angle feds. I don't think wrestling should become the Sopranos.

There is your attitude and hatred towards angle feds because of the freedom we take in our writing. Have you ever hated some one to the point of wanting to rip their throat out? Or do you understand how people COULD hate some one that much? To the point of wanting to kill them. In a very long fued, you start to brew that emotion from time to time.

Really, the drug problem is sporatic, as is murder, and rape. Most of this happened in the Asylum which is a fighting federation that happens to have paid off high members in the government and the top Spike TV Executives. Remember this is called 'Fantasy' Wrestling.

And if you really knew some of the people on-screen ( and them being into drugs) would you still like them?

Thanks,
Brock
-is being nice

 

[Hex Angel]

NFW War Games

Oh yes, Pete knows.

Pete also knows that this conversation reminds him of Scott Seeley.

*shudder*