An Intelligent Discussion... ?

[JLevinson]

Yo

Dear Brock:

That is another reason I prefer the RP Feds to the Angle feds.

I get pretty tired of reading storylines where so and so dies, but comes back the next week only to get raped or OD or something else.

Quite frankly, if there was a league who tried to pull off such stunts, they'd be ignored by everyone for being so utterly tasteless and devoid of good sense.

Now, with FW, that's not such a big deal, but for me, I think it's completely ingenuine to write a story where a wrestler dies or OD's or something, and I find it to be kind of tasteless. It's false emotion. Everyone's sitting here, thinking, "Oh, I can't believe this person is gone," when really, the decision was arbitrary and just meant to be better "storytelling."

I prefer my storytelling to be in the confines of the actual wrestling world and to remain somewhat realistic. If the fWo is really into the drugs, the rape, the murder, and all that, then I'm going to have to agree with Paul by saying that my personal preference certainly lies with the "realistic" storyline FW rather than the "Passions Soap Opera" storylines.

Again, the more I hear about it, the more fWo reminds me of a fan fiction site. Is all the fiction realistic? No. But people do have greater control of their characters and storylines.

However, I'm more than willing to give up some creative control in order to have a fun competition and avoid things like "Oh, this person died, no wait, they're back, no wait, they're dead again" Good riddance.

-Josh

 

[QueenOfTheRing]

geeze DON'T YOU PEOPLE SLEEP?!

Katz, being on the West Coast, is exempt.

and Petey...you need to start taking a more active role in your joint custody of Steve. you can smack him around a bit.

 

[PaulNJ21]

Or it becomes the current champion having a feeling WHO the belt goes to next.

Did you notice I used those phrases in the BEGINNING then dismissed you later on. Add in everyone who has posted in this thread has said the same things to you Paul. You are full of it because it's rather simple you don't know WHAT your arguing against, your just arguing against the fWo because you have it embedded into your head that you hate it.

It has nothing to do with being close minded. As a league President who has been involved in fantasy wrestling for around twelve years and I've been involved in four successful leagues in four different time periods, I'm one of the more open minded people you'll meet. I've read FWO cards and I simply don't like the product or the potential influence it could have on other leagues.

I get my fix of angle leagues when I god book the WWE with a friend or I play a wrestling simulator. I love writing my character but I really find no joy whatsoever in pushing my own character and negotating wins or losses.

I've seen a lot of people come out of the system, which Prodigy used, go on to be professional writers.

Leagues don't have to change their system to have success. I'm basically running the same system I did a decade ago in my league with a few minor changes here and there and thankfully WFW has been doing quite well. RP has never been a problem and we have several big storylines currently going on in our fed.

I'm sorry if I'm not open minded, but as a student of history who has seen what the RP and RP/Angle feds have produced, I'll stick with what has been successful for over fifteen years now.

I've seen a lot of trends come and go. I remember the god awful ECW period where every league wanted to be hardcore and we saw for the most part the death of psychology.

But the basics remain the same...

Or I could of taken initiative and joined a fed where the president lets ME worry about my character and not forcing some one to worry about 30+ characters.

I don't think over in fWo, Travis would want to worry about 60 characters.

60 characters are way too many to have in a league. 30 is sort of pushing it too.

There is your attitude and hatred towards angle feds because of the freedom we take in our writing. Have you ever hated some one to the point of wanting to rip their throat out?

Oh yes...

Or do you understand how people COULD hate some one that much? To the point of wanting to kill them. In a very long fued, you start to brew that emotion from time to time.

I personally haven't been in an extended feud in an RP league since SEPTEMBER OF 2003 when GLCW closed down and I was feuding with Golden Hawk.

::curses Malec::

Really, the drug problem is sporatic, as is murder, and rape. Most of this happened in the Asylum which is a fighting federation that happens to have paid off high members in the government and the top Spike TV Executives. Remember this is called 'Fantasy' Wrestling.

Personally, I think there should be a realistic base to fantasy wrestling in order to keep it resembling professional wrestling. It has never crossed my mind to shank my opponent after beating him.

And if you really knew some of the people on-screen ( and them being into drugs) would you still like them?

I've liked plenty of wrestlers I knew who were on drugs. Doing drugs doesn't make a person bad. Wrestling has produced a lot of drug addicts.

Hell, my favorite wrestler in the 1990s was Eddy Guerrero.

Paul

 

[TheOriginalSE]

I'm getting a BA in English from the University of Rhode Island, and I don't see how the "process" is "bad", especially since I'm participating in the fWo.

Also, let the discussion happen. It's the only way to share opinions and viewpoints. Locking threads doesn't do that.

Just my opinion...

Uh hello Lindsay... there's a difference between URI and RUTGERS!! j/k

hhhehehehe..

-sean

 

[TheOriginalSE]

Re: Re: Don't mind Josh, he's a huskie

And even Lindsay agrees with me on this one, how is EVERYONE qualified to write their own wrestling matches? Not every one understands wrestling well enough to write a good match and there are some people quite horrible at it. So even if the storylines wrapped around the matches are very good, if the wrestling is not good, the final product won't be good.

I agree with Paul on this one .. I mean, look at me .. I havent watched professional wrestling in 5 years now .... I'm stuck in the early - mid 90's .... which is why you see fewer 'spots' than you do in other promotions because I don't know of them lol ...

I focus on trying to get good wrestling matches out on my cards, and I hope that it comes across as so.

-sean

 

[TheOriginalSE]

Paul, the system actually lets you reward yourself as much as the other people in the fed feel you should be rewarded.

It's called having fun with a group of friends, it's what we do. Your statement of complete rubbish saying that the angle fed enviroment doesn't let people develope into writers...

Your full of it. Let me take it this direction, before I was in angle feds, this is how I used to roleplay.

http://www.angelfire.com/ak3/brocksfed/trippin.html

My grammar was hell, it never actually let me develop my character outside of what I debuted him as. I had to focus on the match more than my story. I'm a handler that portrays a character on the internet. This character has feelings outside of kayfabe.

Can you explain those in FWrestling feds? Or does everyone live their gimmick? Because that's unrealistic. The goal is to develop your character through twist and turns in a story. Scott Wasner (aka as Waz) handles a character named Scott Slugger. This character is a cocky legend, the man who won the fWo World Title more than any other man. Off camera he has a cocain addiction and is a driven, evil man.

I don't agree with this at all. There are plenty of people on FW Central who have developed their characters outside of their 'ring name'. Jared Wells and my character are two that come to mind right off the top of my head.

Both of the characters have a troubled history with drugs, alcohol and jail. Both characters have translated this through storylines. Injuries have been discussed in detail. There are histories behind Jean Rabesque and Sean Edmunds, between Copycat and Sean Edmunds, between Hellion and Sean Edmunds (although that hasn't happened in forever ) ...

I don't think that FWCentral inhibits the character development outside of a character's persona. Because there are plenty of people who are doing so... and sorry if my examples were too closely tied to my own character, but they're examples nonetheless.

-sean

 

[AUMedina]

I like to point out that whomever thinks there is little to no character development in RP feds is dead wrong.

Personally, with the NWL, I've been encouraging everyone to develop their characters and storylines outside of the storytelling that is told in the ring.

There are several storylines happening in the NWL and to be honest, I have to thank my members for that because they want to be able to get involved in the growing of the fed. Hell, the fed itself is going through a storyline of its own, as I felt by making the league into some sort of underground/indy fed, and then as it builds momentum, build it up to be more known to the public eye. The league is currently in its infancy and it doing small venues. But as time progresses, the league will start to host events in larger venues.

This is just an example of what I'm trying to say. Even in the WFW, the league is having it's own storyline with the voting of a new commissioner. And I know NEW was running a storyline with its expansion and so forth.

Again, I understand the angle-fed people who need to defend the system they play in and respect that. But to totally be ignorant and think RP feds are all about just wins and losses is kind of rediculous. To me, a good RP fed judges wins and loses solely on RPs alone, but builds everything else around angles and storylines. To me however, the best storytelling happens in the ring, not this soap opera crap that most people seem to accept nowadays called the WWE. I guess like those stated earlier, I'm more of an old school wrestling fanatic than what the product is nowadays.

 

[Al!]

Guys,

I've scanned a few threads on this forum and I want to take a different course with the whole rp/angle thing that I haven't seen yet stated by anyone.

I know what we have here are two mentalities regarding preference but I think what we're missing is this perspective.

An RP fed is about gaming as well as writing. Your writing and conduct can effect the outcome of your matches on a week to week basis beyond the storyline itself.

An Angle fed is about writing with no gaming taken into account. Your writing and conduct can effect the scope of the stories you can write within the framework of the fed.

Now if you're seeing gamers ***** about the lack of writing in angle feds.. well no **** sherlock.

If you see Anglers ***** about the writing ability in RP feds, well again, no **** sherlock.

However, lets not be so bold as to do the following..

1. Let's not write off angle feds as having no value regardless of our personal opinions (frankly my personal opinion of pure angle is well documented as being negative).

2. Let's not write off RP fedders as talentless hacks regardless of personal opinions (again frankly some consider me as good as or better than some of the "big name angle fedders" in that regard but I hate pure angle)

Lastly, (and this says absolutely nothing about the people in FWO, who I like) the popularity of the FWO is at the same time the biggest lift to the hobby and the worst thing that ever happened to the hobby.

On one side you have a lot of people deeply interested in the product. On the other you have a lot of people pissed off about that..

Popularity causes useless fights, group think, hurt feelings, misunderstandings, and unfair representation of people or talent based on popular friendships. Popularity never changes the fact that people are often wrong.

Think I'm wrong?... look at other forum communities. Bottom line is we're all ****ing talented so lets stfu about stupid things.

I put one vote in for the hybrid angle/rp fed that's become the majority but is never spoken about because no one complains about them. They work for both sides of the spectrum in most cases.

Al

 

[Chad]

Aidan's made most of the points I wanted to make. But I throw in a couple anyway.

First, there appears to be some confusion about a few things. Handlers in the fWo and other angle feds certainly *write* as much as many handlers in RP feds. Roleplay is very often wrapped into cards, rather than posted in a setting where there is a 'back-and-forth' promo-style.

On the flip side, there are many RP feds that allow characters to develop and have a life 'outside' the ring. Eli Flair's real-life issues were in play long before his fWo stint. "Storyline" roleplay (as some of us call it) is as old as "The Search" series 13 years ago.

The simple difference is that storyline plays a much larger point in angle feds, while the ability to promo and have a story in the ring can be argued to be a larger point for RP feds.

Aidan addressed the competition aspect, so I won't delve into that one anymore.

The fact is: there are different styles. Guess what? There always have been. PYBA did things differently than the CSWA did in 1992. One of Paul's leagues posted match results minute-by-minute, giving you the timing along the way. Leagues like the IWF here on FW Central went way outside the box of 'wrestling realism' and were still accepted for what they were.

The point is, this is, and always will be, a place that accepts discussion about all styles of fantasy wrestling... from simmed to rp to angle and beyond.

I won't tolerate posters trying to completely shut down and denigrate other styles just because they don't want to hear about them. If that applies to you, then take that warning for what it's worth.

This *will* be a place that encourages intelligent discussion about as many topics as possible. If that entails asking certain folks to stay out of the discussion, then that'll be a next step.

-Chad

 

[Chad]

Leagues don't have to change their system to have success. I'm basically running the same system I did a decade ago in my league with a few minor changes here and there and thankfully WFW has been doing quite well. RP has never been a problem and we have several big storylines currently going on in our fed.

I'm sorry if I'm not open minded, but as a student of history who has seen what the RP and RP/Angle feds have produced, I'll stick with what has been successful for over fifteen years now.

Paul

One quick response, since I've been out of town:

In one breath earlier in the topic, you suggested to Steve that if he and Pete couldn't find traditional motivation for Flair/Windham, then they needed to do something different. You, or someone, suggested finding new characters, new situations, etc.

Above, you completely throw that baby out with the bathwater, when you explain that there's no reason to change what's worked for fifteen years.

There is no doubt that angle feds suit some people more than RP feds, and vice-versa. As Aidan posted, it depends on a number of factors, including the level of 'competition' or 'story-building' you're looking for.

I agree with you on many of the reasons you prefer a more classic RP-style. However, I think it's important not to completely shut down someone else's perceptions, just because they might not be my own. Fantasy wrestling isn't rocket science, there are subjective answers, based on the league, who's running it, and the folks involved in participating in it.

-C

 

[QueenOfTheRing]

Uh hello Lindsay... there's a difference between URI and RUTGERS!! j/k

hhhehehehe..

-sean

where do YOU go to school, Sean? }>

to quote an old professor, "if you decide to go for your masters, it doesn't really matter where you go for your undergrad."

 

[Al!]

That is only partially correct now though.

Example.. you're a Lib Arts major as an undergrad and you want a Masters in Accounting.. as you're working in an Accounting firm, that makes some sense and you'll do well.

Example.. you're a History major with some grad level work in theology. You actually work in IT and in order to move up you need a IT degree. If you go back for a Masters in Info Tech without an undergrad degree that's relevant, you won't be looked at right now in this economy.

So when making that statement, take the area of expertise and demand into consideration If I had taken comp sci coursework at the undergrad level and stayed focused at the grad level, I'd be unstoppable now.

As it stands, I'm well off and looking to start over completely part-time because life has taken me down a favorable path.

(edit **** since I re-read QoTR's post I realize she was talking about quality of school and not discipline.. well my post was interesting.. though completely irrelevant )

Al

 

[TSiegel]

Why is it I sense pointless debates abroad, much like those in "The Tao of Steve"??

And I just opened the door for Steve again....

DAMN.

 

[GreggG]

My take with all of this...

I think I'm one of the more old-school types in our little world. I, too, am a student of FW History, which is as dorky as it gets. And I, too, am a graduate of the traditional 'RP' style or whatver it's being called these days. And now I am employed as a business journalist for a newspaper in Mass., which I guess gives me the right to call myself a "professional writer." Not that I want to brag, or that I really write anything that is really interetsting. But I do think that I'm one of the better writers/handlers.

In terms of personal preference, my preference is to tell stories in the ring. Angles involving my guys, I'd like them to lead to matches. There still is a "wrestling" component to all of this. But I have had some out-of-the-ring stuff with my characters through the years. I'm not Pete Russo or Jon Katz, who've done that kind of stuff a lot more than I have in the CSWA, but I have had Troy Windham go into rehab and WildStar use his wife as a valet during a brief face run.

If you have a character and you want to do all of the soap opera kind of stuff, go ahead and do it. It's just, to me, a lot more interesting if it leads to your guy doing something in a wrestling ring. CASE IN POINT: Shane Southern cheating on his wife in NFW, getting blackmailed doing that, turning more vicious in the ring as a result.

One pet peeve I have, and this is in both styles, is the writing style. We're writing for an imaginary audience to read this. That is a point that everyone forgets. This leads to too much dialogue:

GUY: Who will I be facing?
GIRL: John Doyle.
GUY: I'll kill him!
GIRL: You're so much better than him!

A lot of times, when people are using dialogue, they're using too many words to tell the story. And that has a BIG affect on how well your RP comes off. That's true in all types of writing-- the key isn't using a lot of words, the key is in using the right words.

Another problem I have with RP/Storytelling is an escape from the format that is used. A style on Prodigy developed over the years (the first person to use it is John Gilson. JN is the torch-bearer of this style, today) that ended up being the one we all followed. That is basic scriptwriting. You put an intro scene, with descriptions, in paranthesis. You describe who is in the scene and what they are doing. The person who is in the story talks.

Two reasons linger as to why I support this system. 1) We're showing something that is supposedly for television; this is the system that gets used. Unless it's the Wonder Years, there is no narrator discussing internal thoughts. And rewatch the Wonder Years or Arrested Development. Great shows, yes-- but they got held down because of the narrator. And 2) I like to connect the dots myself. In good storytelling, you don't need to be told how a character is feeling. You can be shown it. For example:

NOVEL STYLE RP: "I have to do these bicep reps," Cage thought to himself. "Because if I don't, than I will not return from my shoulder surgery."

RP STYLE: (CUT TO: CAGE, sitting on a weight lifting bench, a 75-pound dumbbell in his hand. He is lifting, repeatedly, as his tri-cep shakes in pain. Cage lets out a jubilant yell as sweat drops off his brow, tossing the weight down to the ground.)
-----------------------

Along with that, and this even goes for me in my journalism career, all writers have to find ways to use stronger verbs, better adjectives and other language techniques. Everyone, including me, has to concentrate a lot more on writing technique than we do. The original FW battles on Prodigy were basically to try and get everyone to write in semi-acceptable English. The next challenge was to try and come up with a decent formet. The next one, and it's a lot more important than RP/Storyling, is to have us as writers use parser language, more active verbs which will lead to better word pictures and stories.

Not to come off pretentious, but the FW world we've created for ourselves is a lot more responsible for my burgeoning career in journalism than any English/creative writing classes I've ever taken.

 

[TheOriginalSE]

1) Lindsay, um well ... I'm going to Rutgers for law school

So ... it doesn't matter that I'm going to Salem State right now

What matters is my near perfect GPA, and my poli sci major (w/ law concentration) and my minors in Human Biology and Media Communications

or something.

2) I agree with GG.

 

[QueenOfTheRing]

1) Lindsay, um well ... I'm going to Rutgers for law school

So ... it doesn't matter that I'm going to Salem State right now

Wow, Salem State. I feel bad for you.

 

[AUMedina]

Anything's better than Rhode Island...


*runs*

 

[CuseTroy]

Anything's better than Rhode Island...

...WRONG!

OBVIOUSLY, you've never been to Syracuse, NY. Hell, now we can't even say we have the best basketball team in America.

 

[Hex Angel]

One quick response, since I've been out of town:

In one breath earlier in the topic, you suggested to Steve that if he and Pete couldn't find traditional motivation for Flair/Windham, then they needed to do something different. You, or someone, suggested finding new characters, new situations, etc.

Above, you completely throw that baby out with the bathwater, when you explain that there's no reason to change what's worked for fifteen years.

There is no doubt that angle feds suit some people more than RP feds, and vice-versa. As Aidan posted, it depends on a number of factors, including the level of 'competition' or 'story-building' you're looking for.

I agree with you on many of the reasons you prefer a more classic RP-style. However, I think it's important not to completely shut down someone else's perceptions, just because they might not be my own. Fantasy wrestling isn't rocket science, there are subjective answers, based on the league, who's running it, and the folks involved in participating in it.

-C

Don't be too hard on him Chad.... so few of us can do *everything* with such talent.

 

[AUMedina]

...WRONG!

OBVIOUSLY, you've never been to Syracuse, NY. Hell, now we can't even say we have the best basketball team in America.

Actually I can. I'm from New York. Believe dat ya herd!